A question for Mr. CJ Guy...

[*RD*]

Hay cj, or anyone else who may want to say something also, well as you already know cj I am redoing my cleveland, and also I might mention that it was brought to the machine shop so the rebuild has begun. But I wanted to know if I should either send my msd distributor to msd or just have the machine shop look it over. The reason I ask this is because on my old motor, the distributor gear failed and destroyed my camshaft and also my distributor gear. The bearing also in the distributor spins smoothly, but it has a little side to side play in it. So to make a long and annoying story short, I ordered a new gear and installed it myself. But I do not trust that I put it on right, and also that the distributor might still be defective. So what do you guys say send it to msd which could cost $25 to $120 as they put it, or bring it to the machine shop.
Thanks
Dave

[CJguy]

Dave,
I think we discussed this before and if I remember right you put a new dizzee in and it ate your cam gear up. The new dizzee gear was well new and your cam was well had a alot of miles on it so it didn't/maybe/possibly mesh or align right and bevel gears if they don't mesh/align they eat each other. So if your going to do a new cam and replaced the dizzee gear, let the machine shop make sure they mesh/align right.
That is one thing you should check after the cam break-in on your 351C, pull the dizzee and look at the gear wear, you'll see it...
So when is it going to be done?

Dave one other thing, the reason I say that it's a mesh/alignment issue is that most after market parts may not be to spec with oem specs. The gear could be a few thousands off up or down on the shaft causing a misalignment.

[*RD*]

I am hoping that it will be done sometime next week, and it is going to cost me a total of $670, and this includes all the boring, crank polishing, converting the heads from pedstal mount to stud mount, also about that here is another good question for you, would you know how much they have to be ground down, becasue my friend who brought the motor for me said that they asked for that and asked something about the type of arms I am going to run. I probably do not make sense on what I just said. Also finally I am getting a three angle valve job done. Finally about the cam and disto again, the disto was first run on the original cam shaft, then later on that same summer I threw in a new cam about at 200 miles at the most, so I did not think it would make that much of a difference. Also I will post a video like you did when it is done, but this won't be till the spring. Again thanks for your help, I have to get to bed.
Later
Dave

[72Chero]

Not that this is relevant or what caused your problem Dave, but I've had sheer pin issues on distributors... they start to work out and that will change the position of the gear and cause problems with running etc.... the only time I had a dizzy take out the cam... 400 miles into the first rebuild.... the oil pump had locked up... causing a chain reaction... and since Klaus had installed a case hardened oil pump drive shaft in it... it didn't twist taking out the dizzy and the cam... boy was that a mess... going down the highway and this happened... it sucked much... just my experiences....

[75 Squire]

I was running a Pertronix billet dizzy in my 400 for about 6 months. I finally got rid of it after going though 4 or 5 sheer pins for the cam gear. I dont know why but for what ever reason it liked to sheer pins. Went back to a DuraSpark system with a stock replacment dizzy and alls been fine since.

[*RD*]

Yeah, you would think that a $320 msd disto would be top noch and not cause you any trouble. I also read an the crane cams website that running a high volume oil pump which is what I was running could cause gears to wear out quicker as it puts more stress on the gear. I wonder if I should just run a standard pump on my rebuilt motor. I also wounder this is about this fine site, why there arn't more people on here, as it has the really nice v bulllitan system, and has some really good forms.
Later guys
Dave

[72Chero]

Dave...re: this site.... some didn't like it being clean... it will pick up.. Its been taken over by the HotRod Hotline people and they have a great thing going... its a matter of time. It will be awesome. :D

as per the high volume oil pump... I've heard it split both ways... I run the high volume because of the race cam in RED but we also run the high volume in Grouch its only running a mild RV cam... so it depends on the builder. My brother and Klaus have built motors for a thousand years and they swear by them. So for the money... I'd go with the better. Thats just my opinion. :D

as per the Crane cams.... I have seen them go flatter than pancakes... I ran a comp cam in my Chevy... they're notorious for cams going flat... I had 300K miles on that cam... There was a crane in grouch went flat in under 20K .....

[CJguy]

Dave,
I didn't know you had a high volume oil pump, that's probably what took out the gear then. Bear in mind like Sarah said every builder has their own opinion, so I have mine as well. A high volume pump increase output at lower rpm's where it isn't needed which in turn puts additional load on the cam and dist gear plus wasting precious HP. If you think you must use a non spec pump, use a higher pressure one.
For a Cleveland, given it's inherent oiling issues alot of builders think that putting a higher volume pump in will do the trick, not so. The basic problem with the cleveland is the top end gets most all the oil before no#'s 4 and 5 mains do. Also with all that oil in the top end it doesn't drain down quick enough. On my 351C what I did was use a blueprinted pump with standard vol/pressure, SVO shaft, cleaned up the lifter valley and drain holes and painted with epoxy paint, the oil flows nicely back down to the pan. The most important thing I did is to feed no#'s 4 and 5 mains (4 and 5 mains are the most common failure of a cleveland) by running a hose from the front oil port beside the filter to the back where the oil sender is, straight shot to 4 & 5.

Iv'e got two hours on it so far and it runs at 75lbs cold 55-60 hot at idle and off idle hot 75lbs. So I know that the whole engine is getting fed.

On your rocker question, mill tips off the pedestal to the point it's flush, should be good. What rockers and springs are you going to use? May I make a suggestion, use one piece valves, the ford valves are two piece and are know to come apart...

[*RD*]

Yeah, I think that I might ditch the hi volume, and just get a standard pressure one. Also about the valves, I got ss ones that are one piece, and also swirl polished and all that fancy stuff. Also where did you happen to get that blueprinted oil pump, as I may consider running one. Oh yeah I think that for the rocker arms I am going to either run the hartland sharp arms, or the crane engiosser arms. For the studs, I am going to go with the arp ones.
Later and thanks
Dave

[CJguy]

The oil pump I found on ebay, go figure. Good product, melling pump, read their ad, email them and tell them what ya want, great folks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-351C-CLEVELAND-BLUEPRINTED-OIL-PUMP_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ46098QQihZ017QQite mZ270190890439QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[*RD*]

The oil pump I found on ebay, go figure. Good product, melling pump, read their ad, email them and tell them what ya want, great folks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-351C-CLEVELAND-BLUEPRINTED-OIL-PUMP_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ46098QQihZ017QQite mZ270190890439QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
That is pretty pricey, but my saying is that if you want to do it right, you have to spend the extra green. Also from the sounds of it by you it seems like it is well worth it, I might just have to get one, and just forget about the high volume like I said earlier and the high volume or high pressure is a bit overkill for me as I am going to do the occasional drag race and it will be mostly a everyday driver.
Thanks
Dave

[72Chero]

I run only Melling.... but as I said its a high volume... probably good to have since I run such a thick oil :D

[72Chero]

thats exactly what I'm running in RED :D :D :D and Grouch :D :D

[*RD*]

So you run the high volume also, and you did not have any trouble with it. I just do not want to run one again and have the same problem. Also cj, did you get the oil bypass hose from e bay as I have seen them there, or did you rig something up yourself?
Dave

[72Chero]

no problems at all now :D

[CJguy]

RD yes there is a guy making them up on ebay, but really easy to fabricate and a little cheaper than he sells them for. Plus if you make your own for a custom fit, one size doesn't fit all. My Dad first told me about that work-around when I first got my Chero in 79, been using that ever since. Can't wait to tear down the the original CJ engine in the Chero to have a look see after 100 some K miles.

And yes, you get what you pay for.

[*RD*]

Maby I will just try that then, by doing what he does on a standard pump, that I will probably just get in my engine kit.
DAve

[tinman]

RD, first thing you do when you get your block home is install the dizzy in the block and clamp down the hold down bolt just as if it would be to run.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/505496/fullsize/ckellydizgear.jpg

now check the up and down freeplay in the shaft. there needs to be clearance under the gear(.020"-.030" min) or the shaft is in a bind situation and will destroy every cam you throw at it. it's real easy to check before the engine is completely assembled! there may be a shim you can remove, or you may need to drill a new hole for the pin in the gear or shaft collar. you could also remove material from the bottom of the gear.

http://www.cobralads.com/2006/04/why_sb_ford_dis.html

i found that mine was in bind after pulling my cam and finding a chowed on gear. i had planned on keeping and re-using that cam but it's garbage now thanks to a gear set too low on the shaft.

HV pumps have a relief valve same as standard volume pumps. when a HV pump reaches max pressure, same as a standard pump, the relief valve activates and pressure stops building, HV pumps don't add any significant(if any at all) drag on the drive gear or shaft. an engine with wider clearances will flow more oil, the HV pump will supply it as needed, engines with tight clearances will not need as much oil supply and will activate the relief valve when supply reaches max pressure.

the external oil line can help save the rearward mains and rod bearings, but only if the pump has oil to pump. Cleveland oil return holes dont line up at the head gasket. a little chamfering of the holes and/or trimming of the gasket can make a big difference.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/275168/fullsize/clevelands-022.jpg

[tinman]

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/589000/fullsize/rockstud.gif

note that the spec is from the bottom of the channel, not the top of the crowns. i'd worry a little about a shop that doesn't have/know this info. they probably haven't done a set of C heads before and your are their experiment as far as the milling goes.

have you condsidered a set of bolt on roller rockers? there are styles from Yella Terra and Ford Motorsport that use the stock pedestals.

[CJguy]

Nice drawing Tinman, I assumed the shop would know how to mill them, but ya never know.
The head gasket thing, a myth, open up the passage on the gasket and be done with it but really has no effect, thats not the issue with Clevelands, but every little bit helps.

[tinman]

Clevelands having all their oil stuck up in the valve covers is an issue, not a myth. always has been. that's why Ford recalibrated the oil stick on certain versions to 6 quarts full in a 5 quart pan.

the first production block, the DOAE-J, had rear valley oil returns that tied into the same head returns in the block.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/293379/fullsize/mysteriousj.jpg

NO subsequent production block had these rear valley returns. the added oil trying to get back to the pan from the valley would cause stacking in the return above the valley return tie-in, no oil from the heads would return through the head drains as the oil from the valley oil(a lot of it) was filling the return passage in the block. the valve covers filled with oil while the mains and rods went dry. the oil in the heads had to return through the pushrod holes, now you got maybe less than 2 of 5 quarts in the pan? here's an early fix for the condition

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/589553/fullsize/oilreturn1.jpg

[Torkair]

I was recently speaking with an engine shop up in Chandler and they said that they have a couple 4 bolt 351C blocks. While I'd love to get my planned 434 built out of the 400 block that I already have the thought of a real 4 bolt cleveland sitting in the engine bay of my Torino keeps bouncing around in the back of my mind. I already have a 2 bolt block that I could exchange for the core charge or possibly get it machined and build on that. I plan to use CHI 3V heads and intakes on both motors even though there is only 1 intake for the 400 block available at this time. Any imput or advice at all would be a great help.

Thanks!

[75 Squire]

When I get ahold of a 72 Torino Sport Roof Im going to drop a full roolerised 434 in there. Roller rockers and roller cam with the TMI 434 crank. Gonna be neck snapping fun when its on the road.

[Torkair]

Have you considered bumping the compression waaay up and running it on E85? I think that'll be the route that I'm going to take with my 434 once it's built, maby even run EFI.

[CJguy]

"Clevelands having all their oil stuck up in the valve covers is an issue, not a myth. always has been."

Not disagreeing with you at all, trimming the head gasket will help with the drainage but is not a solution. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant but what I said was

"The head gasket thing, a myth, open up the passage on the gasket and be done with it but really has no effect, thats not the issue with Clevelands, but every little bit helps."

I have seen most all cleveland oil mods and yes they all help, but the one solution is to feed the rear mains at the same time the heads do, not downstream. One good reason not to use a high volume oil pump on a cleveland is just that, it will suck the pan dry before it has a chance to drain back down. And one important thing you can do is make the valley as smooth as possible so the oil drains.
http://www.ark-net.com/72chero/clevelandD.jpg

[72Chero]

No I haven't deleted any of your threads CJ you need to empty your messages at US I can't respond to you at all

[Torkair]

CJ can you get a clear pic of your oil reroute for mains 4&5? I keep hearing about this but a realy good pic would do more than words could for me.

[CJguy]

Sorry Sarah, a little sensitive lately...:D
I think I previewed and messed up. I did empty it, thanks for reminder.

Torkair, sure let me look, I took a bunch of pics when I built that thang. Dinner first...

Tinman, you wouldn't by chance have a diagram of the oil passages for a Cleveland would ya? I got one one buried in a box somewhere, but you seem to know Clevelands, so thought I would ask...

[*RD*]

Sorry Sarah, a little sensitive lately...:D
I think I previewed and messed up. I did empty it, thanks for reminder.

Torkair, sure let me look, I took a bunch of pics when I built that thang. Dinner first...

Tinman, you wouldn't by chance have a diagram of the oil passages for a Cleveland would ya? I got one one buried in a box somewhere, but you seem to know Cleveland's, so thought I would ask...Wow, this thread has really gotten to be popular. That is great as many of you fine folks have stated many useful suggestions that I could go by when putting my motor back together when that time comes. Now about the pedestal mount roller rockers, I have never seen those, do you have any links or pics, and I think that I might still go with the stud mount as they are more of a popular mounting style. Also cj, what kind of epoxy paint as in brand did you use for the lifter valley. Finally, I think that I am deffently going to ditch the high volume oil pump, unless I was going to run a racing pan which I am not, and just go with the standard pump, or the one that cj gave me a link to on ebay. I am probably also going to run the oil re route hose that cj is runnig. Talk to you all later, and again thanks for the help.:cool:
Dave

[tinman]

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/589763/fullsize/clevoil.jpg

[tinman]

yella terra info,
http://www.yellaterra.com.au/products/car-performance/products-results.cfm?modelIdentity=12&btnSubmit.x=100&btnSubmit.y=13

supplier,
http://www.ausfordparts.com/

and
www.tmeyerinc.com
can probably get what you need also

[*RD*]

yella terra info,
http://www.yellaterra.com.au/products/car-performance/products-results.cfm?modelIdentity=12&btnSubmit.x=100&btnSubmit.y=13

supplier,
http://www.ausfordparts.com/

and
www.tmeyerinc.com
can probably get what you need also
I don't know, this is kind of a tough call as in that by the time the heads pedstal mount guides are machined down, stud kit for the heads, and the rocker arms, it will probably be just as much as or more for the price of the direct bolt on roller arms. But the only thing will be they will not be adjustable. I will really have to think this over, thank you very much for telling me that and the link. What would you exactly do if you were in my situation. I also have to act quick in what I decide to do as my motor is at the machine shop as we speek. Later and thanks.
Dave

[tinman]

another option, the Crane stud kit. $86.xx at summit i think? all you need is rockers then.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/589856/fullsize/craneconversion.jpg

several of the yella terra rockers are bolt-on and adjustable. like you say yourself, by the time you add it all up, rockers, studs and locks, guideplates and labor, how much do you have into it? then the uncertainty of the machining and what if the studs they get you are too short like the ones i got? chaching pay again... if your cam isn't over the top and within the lift/pressure range of the Crane set-up i'd go towards that route. Chris Kelly's been racing the set-up for a good number of runs(multiple seasons and says it holds up well as i recall.
http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/newmotor3.html

[CJguy]

Dave here is what I did for mine for comparison, just didn't want to go cheap on the heads and won't have any problems running 24/7 with this engine, not the high end of the spectrum but done right. The 566 is just parts and that doesn't include the valves which you have, also does not include the price for the heads or the machine work, I think I have around 1200 into them.
Also don't buy push rods until you get it together and find out what you need (another post down the road)


Comp dual springs, 924-16 $105
Comp retainers, 741-16 $55
Comp Super Locks, 611-16 $23
ARP screw in studs $35
PEP guide plates $27
Trick Flow pushrods, 8.300” $83
Harland Sharp roller rockers $238
Total $566

edit: also the valve train is where you can either gain HP or loose it.

[*RD*]

Thanks cj, that run down really gave me a good perspective on valve train parts. Also I think that I may give my firend a call, and ask his opinion, becase I am not the one that is dealing with the machine shop, because I am at school away from home during the week. So I will give him a call tommrow, and I will let you guys know what I ended up doing. I also have a new mess on my hands, this is that I lost my wollet or it got stolen so I have to deal with that now. You got to love my luck.
Later guys
Dave

[CJguy]

Chit, thats inhales, stop everything, protect your identity, notify everyone that is in your wallet.


On a less important subject, in reference to the lifter valley paint, it is a 2 part marine epoxy paint, don't remember what my machinist used, I was going to get some blue, but he had some left over from a chevy BB build so used that, thus chevy orange. Maybe Tinman could recommend a brand name.

As for the oil port, it is the one that is right in front of the filter, the one that is blocked off in the pic. On my Chero, I used AN fittings, I ran it below the filter (due to the A/C compressor) along the pan on top of the first member, engine side of the motor mount, and up the back side of the block to a tee AN fitting where the oil pressure sending unit is. I would recommend steel braided. I had to wrap my bare hose for thermal reasons, not that I needed it, but just a little insurance.
http://www.ark-net.com/72chero/cleveland.jpg
And on my test stand, went to NAPA and got all the parts I needed to run it on top for around $30, real easy finding brass adapters, AN fittings, well alot more, but it is just a test stand.
http://www.ark-net.com/72chero/oilmod.jpg

Dave I really hope your wallet issue gets resolved, keep us posted...CJ

[tinman]

i used white rustoleum goin on 30 years ago, it's only chipped from tools in the valley otherwise it's still stuck on good! i got the rustoleum idea from the PAW catalog.

last time i lost my wallet it was either in a pants pocket or on my dresser?

[*RD*]

Yeah, I ended up finding my wallet, it flew out of my pocket at one of the buildings at my school when I was going up the stairs. Someone found it, and I got it back yesterday moring, but the $50 that was in there was stolen. So I guess that the a hole took what was useful to them which was cash as I don't carry my credit cards anymore and then turned it in. I guess that is the price you have to pay to get your wallet back. Also cj about the hose, I think that I might get those fittings at work, and maby order a section of steel braded hose from summit, as they probably have steel braded hose in sections with the fittings on the hose already. I also once tried to get the threaded plug off that is near the oil filter but I had no luck, I will have to try it again when I get the motor back. Also I think that por 15 sells marine paint, so I will have to take a look. Have you guys ever seen those AEI? aussie alunimum cleveland heads this guy that the name of the store is aussie cleveland Parts as they are really nice, and I was talking to him on the phone about them, and they sound really nice. But they are $1450. Maby someday in the future when I have the extra cash, I will take off the iron heads and put those on. Anyways thanks guys.
Dave

[Torkair]

If $1450 is for the pair then I say that's a screaming deal! But if that is the price per head then forget that, I'd sooner grab a 3v top end from CHI. Thanks for the pics CJ, that will help tons with my project!

[75 Squire]

Definatly contemplating that mod for my 400.

[CJguy]

Ya know what Squire, it can't hurt. I don't know how many times I have seen posts about low oil pressure, on that other site..:D That is a good indication of what this mod solves and ensures longevity, just couldn't get the point across. Check out this site, it is a common practice amongst cleveland guys.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/

[75 Squire]

Wow this external line thing is about the most contraversial thing about the Cleavlands I have ever seen.

[CJguy]

Yep, but like I have always said, what is your application? Some of those folks are die hard racers who do tear downs after each race or run. But for the normal guy/gal who winds it up every now and then what does it matter if the number one cam bearing gets a few less pounds? I may find out where my limit is on my Cleveland, once, but having built a few marine engines, I want longevity.

[75 Squire]

So for a street engine its a worth while mod?

[*RD*]

It's kind of funny becasue when I went to the machine shop yesterday to drop off some cam bearings, and some valves so they could do the 3 angle valve job, I specifically asked them to get that plug out for me as the allen head pulg is stripped, so I could do that mod. It seems like a mod that is a good idea that won't hurt, and if it really doesn't really help so be it.
Btw the motor looks great so far, they had to grind the main bearings .30 under because one of the rod bearings totally wiped out the surface and he said that if I was to run the moter any longer like that it would probably eventually lead to catastrophic falure. Good thing the disbrutor gear went bad.
Later